I truly believe this will be the last year of the HD Pan America as Harley really does not support this model as well as the touring models. this is very sad because the engine and engineering of this Model is incredible. I love my bike but with HD supporting its product I may go to BMW. Goodbye Willie G.
Charlie23
will it get cancelled eventually? Perhaps. But I doubt it's within the next couple of years.
They made the V-Rod for 15 years before pulling the plug.
They made the V-Rod for 15 years before pulling the plug.
Which is sad, because it was an amazing bike that was before it's time. Co-designed with Porsche, you can't go wrong!
Yup, and Ducati will never make a dirt bike, and KTM will never be as good as Honda, and Motorcycles will never have and automatic Transmission, and Aerodynamics aren't important in motoGP, and the list goes on. Harley has invested 100's of millions investing in this motor and this platform. They're not just going to can it. Who knows if they'll eventually do. Maybe move out of the market, maybe evolve the platform, maybe bring in more partners....It's an interesting ride to be on. But at the end of the day, I'd rather have the Motor Company and their resources standing behind my bike than most off shore manufacturers.
Quote from the internet.....
Harley's core demographic, traditionally middle-aged men, is aging. While the average Harley buyer was around 47 in 2012, estimates suggest it's now closer to 50-55 years old.
Harley-Davidson has had a problem with getting younger riders "into the fold" for decades, and it's only getting worse. Can't survive as a company when your customer base is rapidly "aging out" of motorcycling all together.
Sporty's aren't ticking all the boxes for many younger riders. There are a number of better choices out there. HD has been on a multi-decade effort to put at least SOME models on the showroom floor that will appeal to younger riders, so they (hopefully) trade up to a more expensive/more profitable HD model down the road. Models will come and go (i.e. VRod). Despite their slow sales, HD really gave it a go with the VRod (someone mentioned 15 years?). So IMHO, HD will likely sell the PA for at least another 3-4 years before deciding whether they want to keep losing money on it. They want to continue using the PA to attract as many younger riders as possible.
HD consolidated the 2024 line-up (not offering 2 or 3 different versions of the same loaded-up model), lowered the base prices of many of the 2024 touring models to attract more buyers, and for those that want one fully loaded, they can add option packages to dress them up. Lowering prices is always good for sales, especially when high-interest loans are slowing sales down.
Harley's core demographic, traditionally middle-aged men, is aging. While the average Harley buyer was around 47 in 2012, estimates suggest it's now closer to 50-55 years old.
Harley-Davidson has had a problem with getting younger riders "into the fold" for decades, and it's only getting worse. Can't survive as a company when your customer base is rapidly "aging out" of motorcycling all together.
Sporty's aren't ticking all the boxes for many younger riders. There are a number of better choices out there. HD has been on a multi-decade effort to put at least SOME models on the showroom floor that will appeal to younger riders, so they (hopefully) trade up to a more expensive/more profitable HD model down the road. Models will come and go (i.e. VRod). Despite their slow sales, HD really gave it a go with the VRod (someone mentioned 15 years?). So IMHO, HD will likely sell the PA for at least another 3-4 years before deciding whether they want to keep losing money on it. They want to continue using the PA to attract as many younger riders as possible.
HD consolidated the 2024 line-up (not offering 2 or 3 different versions of the same loaded-up model), lowered the base prices of many of the 2024 touring models to attract more buyers, and for those that want one fully loaded, they can add option packages to dress them up. Lowering prices is always good for sales, especially when high-interest loans are slowing sales down.
This issue weighed on my mind when making my decision this year, although I ended up pulling the trigger on a '24 PAS. Whatever its prospects, it's a solid machine and could well end up being my favorite out of 15 motorcycles owned in my lifetime.
I don't think it will be cancelled this year but I would expect that if sales don't pick up in the next 4 or 5 years the PAS will go the way of Buell, the V-Rod, the Street 500 and 750 platforms, along with smaller efforts like the XR1200X and the Rocker C. And possibly the Wire in the near future. Management will announce the retreat with some mumbling about refocusing on core markets, etc.
What will make them defer this decision is the fact that, as management, cancelling the PAS will expose themselves to the charge that they aren't capable of launching new platforms. They don't want to be stuck with that charge either. They are in a tough spot.
But, ultimately, if the PAS is not a commercial success they will kill it.
The problem is partly due to the fact that H-D is a publicly-traded company. Being a publicly traded company has the upside that you have access to more capital, but the downside is that the owners (mainly funds) know little and care even less about the core business. In theory, this is mitigated by having a Board of Directors who vote on behalf of the shareholders but who do actually know the core business. However, most boards are occupied by persons looking to burnish their own standing in the industrial community and have little interest in sticking their necks out.
The best thing that could happen to Harley is to be bought out by a group that actually is passionate about the sport, like the family-led buyout that took the company private from AMF in the early '80s. I don't see that happening, though.
But, for those of us who are current owners, assuming the line is cancelled in, say, three years, that means spare parts and support will be provided by the company for ten years after; until 2037.
By then I'll be ready to get that trike.
I don't think it will be cancelled this year but I would expect that if sales don't pick up in the next 4 or 5 years the PAS will go the way of Buell, the V-Rod, the Street 500 and 750 platforms, along with smaller efforts like the XR1200X and the Rocker C. And possibly the Wire in the near future. Management will announce the retreat with some mumbling about refocusing on core markets, etc.
What will make them defer this decision is the fact that, as management, cancelling the PAS will expose themselves to the charge that they aren't capable of launching new platforms. They don't want to be stuck with that charge either. They are in a tough spot.
But, ultimately, if the PAS is not a commercial success they will kill it.
The problem is partly due to the fact that H-D is a publicly-traded company. Being a publicly traded company has the upside that you have access to more capital, but the downside is that the owners (mainly funds) know little and care even less about the core business. In theory, this is mitigated by having a Board of Directors who vote on behalf of the shareholders but who do actually know the core business. However, most boards are occupied by persons looking to burnish their own standing in the industrial community and have little interest in sticking their necks out.
The best thing that could happen to Harley is to be bought out by a group that actually is passionate about the sport, like the family-led buyout that took the company private from AMF in the early '80s. I don't see that happening, though.
But, for those of us who are current owners, assuming the line is cancelled in, say, three years, that means spare parts and support will be provided by the company for ten years after; until 2037.
By then I'll be ready to get that trike.
We’ve got start policing these troll posts.
Harley wants to be in the space. It’s the best selling ADV in the country. They’re continuing to make improvements with each model year. They dropped the base model and added the CVO, because Harley wants to be exclusively a premium motorcycle brand in the United States. They have publicly stated that they want their model to be fewer units and higher margins.
ADV bikes also move a ton of accessories, which has been part of Harley’s business model for decades.
Harley wants to be in the space. It’s the best selling ADV in the country. They’re continuing to make improvements with each model year. They dropped the base model and added the CVO, because Harley wants to be exclusively a premium motorcycle brand in the United States. They have publicly stated that they want their model to be fewer units and higher margins.
ADV bikes also move a ton of accessories, which has been part of Harley’s business model for decades.
The Rev-Max engine is the future for HD, the push rod engines are unfortunately going to be history because of the EPA. So I don't think the PA is going any where and will be up graded as necessary. I really want the engine with the 150hp tune put in a world class full fairing sport touring bike. With the cylinders being bolt on I can see Screaming Eagle 1500cc cylinders kit's hitting the market soon.
No way would they put them on cvo's. I work for Harley-Davidson and I personally ride a Pan America and have for over a year. The reason behind them not putting that motor in a CVO is because that motor is so new that if you look up Pan America values, yeah they were Harley's best selling bike two years in a row but now they are harleys worst bike to hold retail value. That being said I believe that kind of cuts off any chance of there being a REV Max in a CVO anytime soon besides of course the Pan America CEO which is nothing different than a regular one just with all the bells and whistles. Plus you're really limited on performance upgrades when it comes to the RedMax motor beam it is a VVT. The CVO for 23 and 24 is a VVT for a reason but they also released the road glide St CVO with the 121 high output instead of the VVT because they know people are going to want to put performance upgrades on them
The Rev Max in a bagger would be a flop in my book and would never purchase one.
I own an Ultra Limited and a PAS and I love both bikes for two different reasons. I'm an old dog
As younger riders get older, they start leaning towards baggers for the same reasons we did.
My dealership has no problem pushing the RG, Ultras, and SG's out the door, and I see the people purchasing them. Due to the cost, you won't tend to see younger riders being able to afford one.
But the market is there for both types of bikes.
Just my two cents
I own an Ultra Limited and a PAS and I love both bikes for two different reasons. I'm an old dog
As younger riders get older, they start leaning towards baggers for the same reasons we did.
My dealership has no problem pushing the RG, Ultras, and SG's out the door, and I see the people purchasing them. Due to the cost, you won't tend to see younger riders being able to afford one.
But the market is there for both types of bikes.
Just my two cents
I think the Rev Max is a very well engineered motor and I am not sure that Harley will add these motors to their bagger models either. In my opinion I am not sure that the motor allows for performance upgrades which is what a lot of riders want to do to personalize their bagger ride. The motor itself has the horse power that is needed but it lacks the HARLEY sound even with performance exhaust which is what a lot of riders want from their baggers (or at least that is some of what I was looking for when I had a bagger). The motor in my opinion was made for new generation riders which is why they are only offered on a few of their models. I think this move is showing the world, Moco has what it takes to show diversity and be a leader in American cycle builds. I myself own a 2023 Pan American Special and came from a 2015 Road Glide Ultra. I am of the old gen but looking on to new generation engineering. I hope that Harley keeps with this model. They are consistently fixing issues that come about with prior models and even offering a CVO model this year. At least to me that shows they are willing to progress with making the Pan American better then its previous model. I am no way affiliated with Harley and only speak from my opinion, and as we all know everyone has one. I have had many Harleys and always enjoy seeing what new innovation they bring each year.
I agree - the CVO is a last ditch effort to save the platform and gauge any remaining interest while also moving a few units to the dedicated CVO crowd for negligible cost over a standard unit.
It would make a fantastic street platform.
It would make a fantastic street platform.
If you ever expect them to support one bike to the level legacy platforms that are far larger, you’re asking way too much.
Based on the fact that it is one model, and platform, in their entire lineup I’m pretty impressed with their level of support. In addition, they continue to make small improvements every year.
As another post mentions, adding it to the CVO line only underscores their support of the bike.
Looking forward to the Pan America owners ride at Sturgis this year!
Based on the fact that it is one model, and platform, in their entire lineup I’m pretty impressed with their level of support. In addition, they continue to make small improvements every year.
As another post mentions, adding it to the CVO line only underscores their support of the bike.
Looking forward to the Pan America owners ride at Sturgis this year!
What is HD going to use as an engine going forward in a few years when air cooled push rod engines won't be able to meet emission standards. The air cooled Sportsters were dropped in Europe before they were Cancelled in the US Because of EURO standards. I'm not even going bring up California and their requirements ( The reason you don't see a Screaming Eagle exhaust on the CVO PA ). It cost a lot of money to keep trying to get more performance out of an air cooled push rod engine. Don't get me wrong I love the sound of them and they look like a work of art to me.
What? The PA was a top seller and is doing better than people are leading on. This is complete BS. In fact the rumor is they will expand the line to include a smaller version. They are cutting other models. Some of you negative nellies are hilarious………
The day HD gets rid of the pushrod motor is the day HD's ship sinks.
What HD will do is stop selling them in the liberal states that push the impossible narrative that all electric is the only way to go.
There are no emissions in my state as with many other states. You guys got your panties all in a wad with all the speculations.
HD cooperate doesn't talk to the dealerships like this because of exactly this talking that is going on in this thread.
Loose lips sink ships. Nobody here knows what's going to happen with the PAS. HD has a ton invested into this bike so I like the odds.
What HD will do is stop selling them in the liberal states that push the impossible narrative that all electric is the only way to go.
There are no emissions in my state as with many other states. You guys got your panties all in a wad with all the speculations.
HD cooperate doesn't talk to the dealerships like this because of exactly this talking that is going on in this thread.
Loose lips sink ships. Nobody here knows what's going to happen with the PAS. HD has a ton invested into this bike so I like the odds.
Yes, the reason for bringing the PA to market in the first place was to attract younger buyers, and it did that quite well for the first two model years when (nearly) everyone who wanted one, bought one, but at the end of the day, with PA sales now slowing, every major vehicle manufacturer will only hold onto a vehicle program for so long (that likely hasn't sold enough units or sufficiently worked down it's warranty costs to become profitable).
The 2024 PA CVO model intro was likely released just so HD could grab some of the higher-end/profit PA sales.
The 2024 CVO MSRP is ~$8,400 more than the 2024 PAS. The decision to bring out the CVO was likely made back when PA sales were still hot (at least 12-18 months ago). HD may not have made the same decision (to bring out the CVO) after PA sales slowed more recently. Manufacturers make a nice profit off the price mark-up when adding on the "extras".
The PA Base model drop from the 2024 line-up was likely evolutionary (pun intended)--when a significantly-higher number of PA orders/purchases are the top-end PAS variety (vs. the less-expensive base model), nearly every manufacturer will dump the lower-profit, lower-volume models and stick to the higher-profit/volume models. HD did that nearly across the board on their bread and butter 2024 cruiser models as well.
The 2024 PA CVO model intro was likely released just so HD could grab some of the higher-end/profit PA sales.
The 2024 CVO MSRP is ~$8,400 more than the 2024 PAS. The decision to bring out the CVO was likely made back when PA sales were still hot (at least 12-18 months ago). HD may not have made the same decision (to bring out the CVO) after PA sales slowed more recently. Manufacturers make a nice profit off the price mark-up when adding on the "extras".
The PA Base model drop from the 2024 line-up was likely evolutionary (pun intended)--when a significantly-higher number of PA orders/purchases are the top-end PAS variety (vs. the less-expensive base model), nearly every manufacturer will dump the lower-profit, lower-volume models and stick to the higher-profit/volume models. HD did that nearly across the board on their bread and butter 2024 cruiser models as well.
Some thoughts..
as far as HD needing to always stick with their traditional Vtwin pushrod engine, I think we will see them try and offer that in some form or fashion for as long as possible. It will continue to grow in displacement and I think we will see VVT and perhaps more cooling added as EPA requirements continue to tighten.
I think the smart move would be to use the Rev Max in more platforms, in bikes that are more modern overall, while still trying to squeeze out as much as possible from the M8 based designs for those that want something more traditional.
However, Porshe 911s are still a popular sports car despite abandoning their faithful air cooled engine years ago. Indian seems to be doing well selling touring bikes with liquid cooled overhead cam engines.
I saw a comment about many states not having emissions requirements, however there are still federal standards that apply.
Saw some comments on the Live Wire bikes..
Electric is the future. Electric motors are better than internal combustion in every objective, measurable way. Efficient energy storage and recharging is the issue, not the motor itself.
Now, that future is likely many years out before it's mainstream. But I think HD spinning off Live Wire was the smart move as opposed to killing it off. This allows the company to continue to be involved in continued development of the electric platform, while selling it in specialized dealers in locations that make sense for that platform.
In short, I've learned to never say never. HD needs to adapt to the ever changing landscape or downsize to a boutique manufacturer like Janus Motorcycles.
as far as HD needing to always stick with their traditional Vtwin pushrod engine, I think we will see them try and offer that in some form or fashion for as long as possible. It will continue to grow in displacement and I think we will see VVT and perhaps more cooling added as EPA requirements continue to tighten.
I think the smart move would be to use the Rev Max in more platforms, in bikes that are more modern overall, while still trying to squeeze out as much as possible from the M8 based designs for those that want something more traditional.
However, Porshe 911s are still a popular sports car despite abandoning their faithful air cooled engine years ago. Indian seems to be doing well selling touring bikes with liquid cooled overhead cam engines.
I saw a comment about many states not having emissions requirements, however there are still federal standards that apply.
Saw some comments on the Live Wire bikes..
Electric is the future. Electric motors are better than internal combustion in every objective, measurable way. Efficient energy storage and recharging is the issue, not the motor itself.
Now, that future is likely many years out before it's mainstream. But I think HD spinning off Live Wire was the smart move as opposed to killing it off. This allows the company to continue to be involved in continued development of the electric platform, while selling it in specialized dealers in locations that make sense for that platform.
In short, I've learned to never say never. HD needs to adapt to the ever changing landscape or downsize to a boutique manufacturer like Janus Motorcycles.
You make some good points. I would lime to add a few thoughts.
Electric is absolutely ridiculous at this point. Until battery technology as you eluded too and infrustructure is refined its boondoggle. We are 20 years away from these above things. Not impossible and maybe hydrogen engines are here before electric.
Air cooled is a joke and how they are dealing with air cooled to meet emissions is super heating the engine oil. Water cooled allows for greater torque and more HP as well as better fuel economy reliability and a ride that doesn't roast your gonads or legs. So the evolution can stay with a nice V-Twin design keep the sounds and performance characteristics but update it and get rid of the stupid air cooling. Put the cooling fins on like Indian or even BMW for looks only.
My 2 cents on it. Can't say anything on HD strategy and to which degree they will support or even extend the Pan America. I do love it, riding it now in the third year and truly enjoy the bike and its features, on the road and on gravel/dirt.
One thought that I would like to share: launched in 2021, not any function or featured added since then, selling it in different colors incl. the fully loaded CVO which is -still- technically the same bike. If you do look left and right, then you can't miss that BMW did an amazing upgrade on the GS. ARH to start with, hand-protectors and mirrors as well as its display way advanced vs. the PA and last but not least radar technology matching the Ducati. Would love if HD would start fixing and/or upgrading its cheap features to continue to be successful.
When it comes to the dealership network: mixed bag. Some are outstanding (TX Waco, CO Loveland), some are far from perfect - but have seen the same with the Powersports guys that carry BMW. Sales, sales, sales... and the support on a different level. PA riders are a new species for HD but it seems it does not get the attention it should - as it still is the fastest growing segment in the market. That is the painful fact we all experience.
One thought that I would like to share: launched in 2021, not any function or featured added since then, selling it in different colors incl. the fully loaded CVO which is -still- technically the same bike. If you do look left and right, then you can't miss that BMW did an amazing upgrade on the GS. ARH to start with, hand-protectors and mirrors as well as its display way advanced vs. the PA and last but not least radar technology matching the Ducati. Would love if HD would start fixing and/or upgrading its cheap features to continue to be successful.
When it comes to the dealership network: mixed bag. Some are outstanding (TX Waco, CO Loveland), some are far from perfect - but have seen the same with the Powersports guys that carry BMW. Sales, sales, sales... and the support on a different level. PA riders are a new species for HD but it seems it does not get the attention it should - as it still is the fastest growing segment in the market. That is the painful fact we all experience.
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
