[Ramjet]

@Ramjet

I have a Honda Africa Twin that's set up for gravel/off-road too (2016 model). I did the MABDR and PABDRX with it the last few years (along with a few other things). I use my 2023 PAS for on-road adventures. Looks like we have more in common than what you think.

Thats funny mine is a 2017. I bought it with only 3200 miles on it. Just added Tusk soft panniers and top rack plus bag and new Tusk Tires. I like the PAS better but not wanting to beat it up in the dirt. Thats where the AT comes in….One thing about the PAS two up it runs like a champ and that bike is almost as fast as my V-Rod was.

 

[mikeInPA]

Some thoughts..

as far as HD needing to always stick with their traditional Vtwin pushrod engine, I think we will see them try and offer that in some form or fashion for as long as possible. It will continue to grow in displacement and I think we will see VVT and perhaps more cooling added as EPA requirements continue to tighten.

I think the smart move would be to use the Rev Max in more platforms, in bikes that are more modern overall, while still trying to squeeze out as much as possible from the M8 based designs for those that want something more traditional.

However, Porshe 911s are still a popular sports car despite abandoning their faithful air cooled engine years ago. Indian seems to be doing well selling touring bikes with liquid cooled overhead cam engines.

I saw a comment about many states not having emissions requirements, however there are still federal standards that apply.

Saw some comments on the Live Wire bikes..
Electric is the future. Electric motors are better than internal combustion in every objective, measurable way. Efficient energy storage and recharging is the issue, not the motor itself.

Now, that future is likely many years out before it's mainstream. But I think HD spinning off Live Wire was the smart move as opposed to killing it off. This allows the company to continue to be involved in continued development of the electric platform, while selling it in specialized dealers in locations that make sense for that platform.

In short, I've learned to never say never. HD needs to adapt to the ever changing landscape or downsize to a boutique manufacturer like Janus Motorcycles.

 

[Ramjet]

Some thoughts..

as far as HD needing to always stick with their traditional Vtwin pushrod engine, I think we will see them try and offer that in some form or fashion for as long as possible. It will continue to grow in displacement and I think we will see VVT and perhaps more cooling added as EPA requirements continue to tighten.

I think the smart move would be to use the Rev Max in more platforms, in bikes that are more modern overall, while still trying to squeeze out as much as possible from the M8 based designs for those that want something more traditional.

However, Porshe 911s are still a popular sports car despite abandoning their faithful air cooled engine years ago. Indian seems to be doing well selling touring bikes with liquid cooled overhead cam engines.

I saw a comment about many states not having emissions requirements, however there are still federal standards that apply.

Saw some comments on the Live Wire bikes..
Electric is the future. Electric motors are better than internal combustion in every objective, measurable way. Efficient energy storage and recharging is the issue, not the motor itself.

Now, that future is likely many years out before it's mainstream. But I think HD spinning off Live Wire was the smart move as opposed to killing it off. This allows the company to continue to be involved in continued development of the electric platform, while selling it in specialized dealers in locations that make sense for that platform.

In short, I've learned to never say never. HD needs to adapt to the ever changing landscape or downsize to a boutique manufacturer like Janus Motorcycles.

You make some good points. I would lime to add a few thoughts.
Electric is absolutely ridiculous at this point. Until battery technology as you eluded too and infrustructure is refined its boondoggle. We are 20 years away from these above things. Not impossible and maybe hydrogen engines are here before electric.
Air cooled is a joke and how they are dealing with air cooled to meet emissions is super heating the engine oil. Water cooled allows for greater torque and more HP as well as better fuel economy reliability and a ride that doesn't roast your gonads or legs. So the evolution can stay with a nice V-Twin design keep the sounds and performance characteristics but update it and get rid of the stupid air cooling. Put the cooling fins on like Indian or even BMW for looks only.

 

[Katschberg]

My 2 cents on it. Can't say anything on HD strategy and to which degree they will support or even extend the Pan America. I do love it, riding it now in the third year and truly enjoy the bike and its features, on the road and on gravel/dirt.

One thought that I would like to share: launched in 2021, not any function or featured added since then, selling it in different colors incl. the fully loaded CVO which is -still- technically the same bike. If you do look left and right, then you can't miss that BMW did an amazing upgrade on the GS. ARH to start with, hand-protectors and mirrors as well as its display way advanced vs. the PA and last but not least radar technology matching the Ducati. Would love if HD would start fixing and/or upgrading its cheap features to continue to be successful.

When it comes to the dealership network: mixed bag. Some are outstanding (TX Waco, CO Loveland), some are far from perfect - but have seen the same with the Powersports guys that carry BMW. Sales, sales, sales... and the support on a different level. PA riders are a new species for HD but it seems it does not get the attention it should - as it still is the fastest growing segment in the market. That is the painful fact we all experience.

 

[christopher.lawrence]

will it get cancelled eventually? Perhaps. But I doubt it's within the next couple of years.
They made the V-Rod for 15 years before pulling the plug.

Which is sad, because it was an amazing bike that was before it's time. Co-designed with Porsche, you can't go wrong!

 

[Ramjet]

The V-Rod engine may be the best modern V-Twin engine harley EVER made.

 

[CavScout]

@roadrash83

It's unbelievable that HD has somehow managed to make the air-cooled Twin still pass 50-state emissions testing.

You are right though....as California makes passing their state emissions testing tougher and tougher, ultimately, CA will eventually kill internal combustion engine vehicle sales all together (making EV's the only sellable vehicles in CA). HD will have to do something!

California is too big of a market to just completely stop selling vehicles in. Maybe that's why HD is keeping it's Livewire alive....to have something to sell in California. They buy big-twins too. It will be very interesting to see if HD does ultimately make an EV bagger. That will certainly be the end of HD as we know it. I'm guessing that won't happen in our lifetimes though.

It won’t matter in California cause anybody that can afford a car and drive will have moved out. And besides that it’s like everything else in kind of only make so much money rules don’t apply to you poor you are the more you can get away with

 

[2023DG]

Thats funny mine is a 2017. I bought it with only 3200 miles on it. Just added Tusk soft panniers and top rack plus bag and new Tusk Tires. I like the PAS better but not wanting to beat it up in the dirt. Thats where the AT comes in….One thing about the PAS two up it runs like a champ and that bike is almost as fast as my V-Rod was.

@Ramjet

I REALLY wanted a V-Rod when it first came out. Great bike. Awesome-looking motorcycle. But to me, it was unfortunately a 3/4-scale motorcycle.

I went to an SAE event in my area on the bike just before it was released to the market (in 2002 I believe). I listened to a few talks from HD execs that were there to talk about the design and development of it. Saw the V-Rod in person for the first time, sat on it, got my picture taken while sitting on it (with a Polaroid instant camera), then disappointingly realized this bike wasn't made for me. I looked silly on it....like an adult sitting on a kid's tricycle. Was very disappointed. I read every article there was available to read on it before that.

The ADV revolution of the past 15 years or so here in the U.S. has fortunately opened up the bikes available for me to ride significantly. Couldn't be happier about that. I can swing a leg over ANY motorcycle and have both feet planted firmly and flat on the ground, even on ADV's with 34-35 inch seat heights. One of the benefits of being 6'5" tall (barefoot), but at the same time, one of the drawbacks, is motorcycles designed for people 5'6" tall (like the V-Rod) are WAY to small for me.

 

[bikebit]

@Ramjet

I REALLY wanted a V-Rod when it first came out. Great bike. Awesome-looking motorcycle. But to me, it was unfortunately a 3/4-scale motorcycle.

I went to an SAE event in my area on the bike just before it was released to the market (in 2002 I believe). I listened to a few talks from HD execs that were there to talk about the design and development of it. Saw the V-Rod in person for the first time, sat on it, got my picture taken while sitting on it (with a Polaroid instant camera), then disappointingly realized this bike wasn't made for me. I looked silly on it....like an adult sitting on a kid's tricycle. Was very disappointed. I read every article there was available to read on it before that.

The ADV revolution of the past 15 years or so here in the U.S. has fortunately opened up the bikes available for me to ride significantly. Couldn't be happier about that. I can swing a leg over ANY motorcycle and have both feet planted firmly and flat on the ground, even on ADV's with 34-35 inch seat heights. One of the benefits of being 6'5" tall (barefoot), but at the same time, one of the drawbacks, is motorcycles designed for people 5'6" tall (like the V-Rod) are WAY to small for me.

I'm 5'11", have owned three V-Rods of different years, including one of the last V-Rod Muscles that rolled off the line, and if those were way too small for you, then no bike was big enough

 

[2023DG]

My 2 cents on it. Can't say anything on HD strategy and to which degree they will support or even extend the Pan America. I do love it, riding it now in the third year and truly enjoy the bike and its features, on the road and on gravel/dirt.

One thought that I would like to share: launched in 2021, not any function or featured added since then, selling it in different colors incl. the fully loaded CVO which is -still- technically the same bike. If you do look left and right, then you can't miss that BMW did an amazing upgrade on the GS. ARH to start with, hand-protectors and mirrors as well as its display way advanced vs. the PA and last but not least radar technology matching the Ducati. Would love if HD would start fixing and/or upgrading its cheap features to continue to be successful.

When it comes to the dealership network: mixed bag. Some are outstanding (TX Waco, CO Loveland), some are far from perfect - but have seen the same with the Powersports guys that carry BMW. Sales, sales, sales... and the support on a different level. PA riders are a new species for HD but it seems it does not get the attention it should - as it still is the fastest growing segment in the market. That is the painful fact we all experience.

@Katschberg

There's definitely a market segment that like all the hi-tech goodies that are coming out on ADV motorcycles now, but unfortunately, and especially with the Harley brand, don't think there's a significant-enough interest in that (yet) by the typical HD buyer for that (like radar technology) on Harleys. Maybe in 5-10 years....HD may already be working on it for all we know. If they do bring it out, it will likely come out on the high-end models first, then trickle down to everything else.

Harley did shock the market with the high-tech ARH feature when they introduced the PA 3 years ago. Nobody else had that, and it definitely created alot of interest in the bike in the press, and it brought buyers to the showrooms--Harley's purposeful intention. That was done by Harley more for opening up the ADV market to a larger portion of the market segment (that may not have been able to otherwise ride the PA because it was too tall for many people).

 

[2023DG]

I'm 5'11", have owned three V-Rods of different years, including one of the last V-Rod Muscles that rolled off the line, and if those were way too small for you, then no bike was big enough

@bikebit

Yeah, honestly, it was way too small. 5'11" was probably fine for a comfortable "look" and feel while atop a V-Rod. If you can picture a large NFL wide receiver (6'5" 225 lbs) sitting on your bike, that would have been me. I was tempted to take a second look at the V-Rod when HD released a model that had a much-higher seat height, but I passed on it. I don't like the "leaned over" posture on my MC's either. I want to sit straight up in the saddle, raise my arms up, and have the grips somewhere under my hands, with a slight bend of the elbow. I would have had to put some pretty tall risers on the V-Rod too. Yeah, my arms are longer, but my torso (and where my arms exit my torso) are farther away from the bars because I sat so much further up on the bike than shorter guys. Was happier with the ADV ergo's by the time the V-Rod muscle came out so I stuck with that.

 

[fred82much]

I really want to see this motor unrestricted in a Road Glide.

Not near enough torque below 3k. Unless your a clutch burner, it won't pull away from a light in a bike that heavy.

 

[Rocket]

Not near enough torque below 3k. Unless your a clutch burner, it won't pull away from a light in a bike that heavy.

"Unrestristed" is the key word.

 

[fred82much]

....just a good tune. I don't think it's restricted as much as it's EPA over-compliant.

Check out the Sporter S.....kind of what you are looking for.

Ford stuck a small turbo 4 in a big car in the 80's. The turbo coupe T-bird was fast, but at the end of the day the V8 mustang sold.

The rev-max in a touring frame would be one awesome project. Turn heads for sure.

 

[detansinn]

I don't get the sky is falling comments in this thread. 2024 will not be the last model year. There will be a second generation Pan America in the years ahead. Harley is committed to this segment. Heck, even with their spin out Livewire, which to be clear, is hardly selling any bikes, Harley just committed more than $100m additional dollars of support to give them runway.

While never a hot seller, Harley stuck with the VROD for 18 years and only walked away from the platform, because the engine didn't meet new emissions requirements. The Revolution Max was developed as the successor and the future performance powerplant.

For the new tourers, Harley has quietly introduced liquid cooling with most buyers not being the wiser. King of the Baggers trickledown is already happening. Will we ever see a Revolution Max in a Harley Touring bike? Well, yeah, it's called the Harley-Davidson Pan America. Will we ever see it in a proper streetfighter/hooligan machine? Of course, that bike is the Harley-Davidson Pan America.

HD customer support is excellent. Dealer network is peerless. If you're adventuring in the United States, this is the bike to own.

I've got 6, soon to be 7 motorcycles in the garage. If I had to thin it down to one, the Pan America would be that bike. It's a fantastic all-arounder.

 

[detansinn]

...and one more thing, the HD Pan America just swept the all 3 Super Hooligan podium positions in Daytona. So, if you're peddling nonsense about HD abandoning and not further developing this platform, you can sit back down.

 

[JE88]

I don't get the sky is falling comments in this thread. 2024 will not be the last model year. There will be a second generation Pan America in the years ahead. Harley is committed to this segment. Heck, even with their spin out Livewire, which to be clear, is hardly selling any bikes, Harley just committed more than $100m additional dollars of support to give them runway.

While never a hot seller, Harley stuck with the VROD for 18 years and only walked away from the platform, because the engine didn't meet new emissions requirements. The Revolution Max was developed as the successor and the future performance powerplant.

For the new tourers, Harley has quietly introduced liquid cooling with most buyers not being the wiser. King of the Baggers trickledown is already happening. Will we ever see a Revolution Max in a Harley Touring bike? Well, yeah, it's called the Harley-Davidson Pan America. Will we ever see it in a proper streetfighter/hooligan machine? Of course, that bike is the Harley-Davidson Pan America.

HD customer support is excellent. Dealer network is peerless. If you're adventuring in the United States, this is the bike to own.

I've got 6, soon to be 7 motorcycles in the garage. If I had to thin it down to one, the Pan America would be that bike. It's a fantastic all-arounder.

What will be lucky #7?

 

[detansinn]

What will be lucky #7?

Oh, it's a special one. I'm excited like a kid before Christmas.
Number 7 is a Langen 2 stroke. 264lbs, 74HP from a 250cc 90 degree twin. My bike is currently being built should be stateside by Fall.

Two Stroke | Langen Motorcycles

Produced in limited runs, our motorcycles are fully customisable with bespoke geometry and ergonomics, each machine is truly crafted for the individual.

www.langenmotorcycles.co.uk

Langen is only building 100 of them. They are completely bespoke. You pick colors and finishes for everything. This is what my bike will look like.

If you grew up riding two strokes, you can certainly understand my enthusiasm. It should be sufficiently bonkers.

 

[Rocket]

Nice!!!

 

[Ramjet]

@Ramjet

I REALLY wanted a V-Rod when it first came out. Great bike. Awesome-looking motorcycle. But to me, it was unfortunately a 3/4-scale motorcycle.

I went to an SAE event in my area on the bike just before it was released to the market (in 2002 I believe). I listened to a few talks from HD execs that were there to talk about the design and development of it. Saw the V-Rod in person for the first time, sat on it, got my picture taken while sitting on it (with a Polaroid instant camera), then disappointingly realized this bike wasn't made for me. I looked silly on it....like an adult sitting on a kid's tricycle. Was very disappointed. I read every article there was available to read on it before that.

The ADV revolution of the past 15 years or so here in the U.S. has fortunately opened up the bikes available for me to ride significantly. Couldn't be happier about that. I can swing a leg over ANY motorcycle and have both feet planted firmly and flat on the ground, even on ADV's with 34-35 inch seat heights. One of the benefits of being 6'5" tall (barefoot), but at the same time, one of the drawbacks, is motorcycles designed for people 5'6" tall (like the V-Rod) are WAY to small for me.

I can understand Im 5‘11” V-Rod fit me well both my V-Rods were the Muscle. I just really enjoyed them and loved that motor but they not long haul bikes at all.